'I don't consider philosophy and literature as mere subjects': Hindi belt's foremost thinker-story teller

Counterview Desk 
Premkumar Mani emerged in the Hindi literary world in the 1980s as a sensitive storyteller. His stories and novels were widely discussed. However, Mani's reputation gradually grew for his ideological writings, and he became known as one of the Hindi belt's most prominent thinkers. Due to his worldview, historical awareness, analytical ability, and popularity among Hindi readers, he is compared to historian Yuval Noah Harari. His autobiography, "Akath Kahani" (Untold Story), was recently published, narrating his life alongside a firsthand account of North Indian politics. Ajit Kumar spoke with him about various questions, centering on his autobiography. Here is an edited excerpt of their conversation:
Ajit Kumar: In your autobiography, "Akath Kahani," you've mentioned almost all significant events from your childhood. Is there any other event that you now recall and feel should have been included in the book?
Premkumar Mani: Look, life is vast. I couldn't possibly write about every event, but some events certainly come to mind repeatedly after writing. I can't say that everything has been included in this autobiography. How can a person's entire life story fit into one autobiography? Only some important events useful for the reader can be mentioned in a book. Insults, honors, all the complexities of life, illnesses, joys, sorrows – all of this isn't possible in one book.
Ajit Kumar: During your college days, your interest was more in literature than science, as you were reading a novel the day before your physics exam, when you should have been preparing for it.
Premkumar Mani: I once heard Rajneesh say in a discourse, as a recollection to his students, that he didn't consider philosophy a subject. One of Rajneesh's students had left philosophy for another subject. Rajneesh then remarked that one couldn't abandon an interest in philosophy by merely leaving the subject. Rajneesh didn't accept philosophy as a subject. I also don't view philosophy as a subject. Some people do treat philosophy as a designed subject that we all study. Fine, I also don't consider literature a separate subject, nor do I consider sports and music separate subjects. These things help our lives run smoothly. Science tells us how the world was made, and philosophy asks why the world was made. Literature tells us what is happening in our lives and what should happen. It's a bridge. A writer acts as a bridge between what is happening in our society and what should happen. Biology tells us how life began, chemistry tells us about chemical substances, and so on. There was a time when religion guided society. I believe religion no longer plays a positive role; it's now spreading hypocrisy. I take literature seriously because humanity, mankind, and society need literature to sustain themselves. What should our perspective be? Literature is like my breath.
Ajit Kumar: Can we say that literature is an integral part of our society?
Premkumar Mani: Yes, absolutely.
Ajit Kumar: You were mentored by Jagdish Kashyap and remember him as your guru. Please share a few words about your thoughts on Buddhism before meeting Jagdish Kashyap during your school days, and how they changed after his mentorship.
Premkumar Mani: Actually, when I was an adolescent, or in high school, my 14-month-old sister passed away. She used to play in my lap. People said that if my sister had been taken to a good doctor, she might have survived. For the first time in my life, I was forced to think about sorrow, death, and whether anything existed after death. To find liberation from this, I found a thin book of 50-60 pages. The 2500th birth anniversary of Buddha was being celebrated in 1956. This book was published by the Indian National Congress for the occasion. When I read it, I felt an attraction to Buddha. After that, I read Karl Marx and Rahul Sankrityayan. I read books related to Buddha. After reading all this, the attraction grew. I read Havaldar Tripathi 'Sahraday's book, "Baudh Dharma aur Bihar" (Buddhism and Bihar). This book contained biographies of three or four proponents of Buddhism, including Rahul ji, Anagarika ji, and also Kashyap ji. It also mentioned that Kashyap ji lived in Nalanda. I went and met him. At that time, I was 19 years old. Then I became connected to him. I knew nothing about Buddhism before him. He asked me, "Why do you like Buddhism?" At that time, I gave some answer which I don't remember now. Slowly, our intimacy grew, and I received his companionship, which I can still feel today. He passed away in 1976. My respect for him will always remain.
I saw Buddhism in a new light through him. Jagdish Kashyap was not a fanatic. I also had a Marxist perspective. By sitting and talking with him, I learned about various aspects of Buddhism and gained a lot of knowledge. He translated Milindapanha (The Questions of Milinda). He translated the Tripitaka into Hindi. His work in translation was significant. He was knowledgeable in several Chinese languages, including Mandarin. He was also well-versed in Sanskrit. He used to travel to China and was highly respected there. One of his friends was Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan. He was a great personality. Through his companionship, I gained a new perspective and understanding of the world. He often used to say, "Think big, do big," but while I didn't do anything big, I never hesitated to think big. The world is changing very fast, and knowledge is expanding. I haven't even been able to grasp a small part of knowledge to this day. I believe that compassion and sensitivity need to be preserved far more than mere ideas. The value of sensitivity is far greater than that of thought. I learned a lot from him. Even today, I speak his name with reverence and respect.
Ajit Kumar: Sir, you say you haven't done anything great, but we, your readers, know that your worldview and your writing have contributed immensely to the world of literature and ideas.
Premkumar Mani: Thank you, thank you. I have learned a lot from science, from my guru, and from society. In the beginning, I was afraid of many things, but Kashyap ji removed the fear within me. He used to say that you don't need to think too much; just as you talk to us, talk to great people too. When scholars from India and abroad came to meet Jagdish Kashyap, I became fearless by talking to them. Fearlessness is a great thing. If a guru makes you fearless, then that is a true guru. Fearless doesn't mean reckless, but rather becoming free from fear. Kabir also says that if a teacher makes his disciple fearless, then that is the true form of a guru and disciple, and it can be anyone, like parents, friends, etc. Knowledge liberates a person.
Ajit Kumar: In your early days, you were associated with the Communist Party. You were distanced from the party for opposing the Emergency. It has always been seen that a person who speaks the truth has to endure a lot, so for my own sake, I would like to ask, what should one do if speaking the truth ruins relationships?
Premkumar Mani: Whatever the religion or idea, people tend to make it rigid. I am still a Marxist. Marxism is an idea, a Marxist is a utopia, just like Kabir Das's 'Amar Desh' and Raidas's 'Begumpura'. I have certainly been a member of the Communist Party. Even today, communism is in our thoughts. I see a harmony in Kabir's Amar Desh, Raidas's Begumpura, and Marxism. There is also some hypocrisy in Buddhist thought or philosophy. Many people believe in Hinduism, but there are different forms within it, such as the Hinduism of the Upanishads, the Hinduism of the RSS, and that of the priests. I was influenced by Marxism. When I opposed the party's mistakes, I was expelled. I say that if something wrong is happening, one should fearlessly raise their voice and oppose it. This has been my habit, and I have endured many difficulties for it.
Ajit Kumar: You do both social and political analysis. My question is, what should be the relationship between literature and politics?
Premkumar Mani: Politics cannot be separated from society, just as an idea has no separate importance. There is thought only if there is matter. The past and illusion are relative to each other. Idea and materiality are relative to each other. There is politics only if there is society. The main objective of politics is how we take society forward. I want to see development under the Human Happiness Index. Our measure of development should not be skyscrapers and factories, etc. Even with all modern conveniences, if a human is unhappy, we will not call that development. We should develop human sensibility. Development should be promoted by maintaining harmony with all forms of nature.
Ajit Kumar: In your youth, you met the poet Kashinath Pandey ji. After that, he walked with you far down the street to see you off. You mention this in your autobiography.
Premkumar Mani: Please forgive me, I'm interrupting you. There was an incident where I was getting drenched in the rain, didn't have an umbrella, and was walking when he suddenly opened the door and invited me in. At that time, he didn't know me, nor did I know him. Later, I found out he was the poet Pandey ji. That's how I met him. All poets and writers in the world are a different kind of being and constantly work to refine humanity. He offered me tea with great simplicity. He brought pork and said, "Eat." I ate it. Then he asked me, "Do you know what you just ate?" I didn't know about pork. He told me that I had eaten pork. Then I felt, "What have I done?" He said that to become a writer or a poet, you cannot live wearing a kanthi (a devotional necklace). This small incident in my autobiography was very significant for me. It was a great lesson for me.
Ajit Kumar: In your autobiography, you mention the construction of a wall in the courtyard of your relative's house, which you compare to the Berlin Wall. This is a very interesting comparison.
Premkumar Mani: These are personal experiences, and you liked it. This is life; you observe events around you, you think, you ponder. This is my habit; it's in my writing style. Connecting a small incident to Buddha or weighing something against Buddha or Marx is my habit. Every person connects a scene or an event to their work or need. For example, a hungry person imagines the moon as bread, a lover imagines the moon as their beloved. It depends on the person's emotions.
Ajit Kumar: In your writing, if a reader finds a word difficult to understand, you explain it in parentheses or in a sentence or two. This makes it much easier for readers from non-Hindi speaking regions. For example, since I live in a northeastern state, it becomes very easy for people here. You've explained "borsi" in your autobiography as an earthen pot used to keep fire lit during winters. Will such regional words disappear over time?
Premkumar Mani: There are many words. Many words disappear from one world to another. There was a time of chariots, now chariots are gone. After some days, horse-drawn carriages and bullock carts will also disappear. Small things like kajarauta (a traditional kohl container) will also disappear. The plow will disappear; gradually, plows are being used very little. Now look at the okhli (mortar) and moosal (pestle). The next generation won't even know about okhli and moosal. For example, moosladhar barish (torrential rain) means rain with a flow like a pestle, or very heavy rain. If people don't know what a moosal is, how will they understand moosladhar? Just as words from the Vedic period are not among us today. That society has also disappeared. In ancient times, barley was boiled in milk and eaten by deities, which was called khudsa; it has now disappeared. Earlier, Som Ras was drunk, and now tea is drunk. A hundred years ago, our grandparents didn't drink tea, but now tea has arrived among us. Earlier, people drank sharbat, which was made by mixing jaggery and buttermilk. Now, if people drink sharbat, they say they'll get sugar. Now people don't even know the original form of sharbat. Everything is changing, the world is changing. The work of literature is to preserve words and things within literature. Words will definitely go out of circulation, but everything will remain in the history of mankind.
Ajit Kumar: In your story "Kaas Ke Phool," people from so-called lower castes are very afraid of the wealthy, moneylenders, and landlords from alleged upper castes. When you wrote this story in 2009, how do you see the changes in society between then and now?
Premkumar Mani: The sculptor in that story, a potter, is an ordinary person. He carves feudalism and injustice into his sculptures. He expresses personal feelings. He is angry with some people in society. The organizer of the puja is the biggest villain of society. That sculptor expresses his feelings through his sculpture. If he were a writer, he would express his feelings by writing. The writer's job is to bring to light the issues of the weaker and exploited sections. All this is expressed by the potter through his sculpture. He flees out of fear. A writer is a proponent of humanity and goodness.
Ajit Kumar: Currently, the government is running many campaigns on environmental conservation. In your story "Imliya," you hint at environmental conservation. My question is, how can literature help in environmental conservation?

Premkumar Mani: That's for you all to think about: what are the measures that will conserve the environment? The writer's job is to point in that direction. How desolate can everything be without trees? How can human identity be lost? What will children think about it? What will children think about birds? The writer's job is to pinpoint the issue. There will be much development on Earth—big roads, skyscrapers, factories—but if there are no birds, plants, or animals, then imagine what the Earth's scene would be like? I have another story, "Khoj" (Search), in which a man dreams that he goes to his friend's village, and there are beautiful houses there. But there are no birds, no trees, no animals, and the houses are locked. If there are no humans, no trees, no animals, then that beauty means nothing. Everything should have consciousness. If there is no consciousness, what is the meaning of that world? If there is no consciousness, Brahman has no meaning. If there are moon and sun, but no one to see them, what is the meaning of the moon and sun? There must be humans to see them. People don't consider the tamarind tree good, people are afraid of snakes, but the existence of snakes is also necessary. The presence of everything on Earth is important. If there are long days and no night, it will also feel bad. Day and night are relative to each other. Light is next to darkness, and darkness is next to light. In the world, everything may or may not be beautiful, but the perspective becomes beautiful. In Mohan Rakesh's story "Miss Pal," there is a fat woman whom no one likes. That fat woman also has the feeling that someone should like her. Love and other emotions also exist within her. The writer's job is to reach where ordinary people's eyes do not go. The writer's job is to develop a perspective.
Ajit Kumar: Sir, I am currently researching your non-fiction literature for my PhD at Assam University's Diphu, Assam Campus. My research topic is your non-fiction literature. What is the current landscape of non-fiction literature?
Premkumar Mani: Ah, non-fiction literature! It's a good topic. I do write fiction, but fiction or novels aren't everything. Storytelling is just a medium. I want to be a writer all my life. I want to make life beautiful. In that sense, I want to know how many planets there are in creation, how many stars there are, how vast the sky is. Our planet is a small planet, just like a dot. Whatever exists on this Earth, literature revolves around it.
Ajit Kumar: Sir, please tell us something about your personal life.
Premkumar Mani: We all know that one day we all have to cease to exist. As long as I am here, I want to do good for others as much as I can. Every person has a limit, and I have one too. I have met many people – those connected with religion, politics, science, and literature. I don't fight with anyone. If I speak against something wrong, a fight might happen. If something is wrong, I definitely say it's wrong. I come from a political family. I have been friends with some prominent politicians, such as Lalu ji, Nitish ji, and Ram Vilas ji. I have also had friendships with people from other fields. I call wrong wrong and right right, which I learned from my guru. In Hazariprasad ji's novel Banabhatta Ki Atmakatha, there's a line I like the most: "Do not be afraid of anyone for the truth, not even your guru, not even the world, not even the Vedas." I am not reckless; I am fearless. Everything has its limits. Resources also have their limits. Regarding material resources, I would like to say that we need only enough resources for our boat to sail smoothly. If wealth comes into our boat, the boat will sink. Similarly, if we have too much wealth, understand that the boat won't move. There's a line by Kabir:
Pani badhe nao mein, ghar mein bake daam.
Dou haath ulichiye, yahi syano ka kaam.
Daam means wealth. Just as a boat is at risk of sinking if it takes on too much water, similarly, if wealth increases in the house, we should donate with both hands. If there is too much wealth, children will not study, they will not think. That's why there are no thinkers, no literary figures, no scientists in the families of rich people, because they have too much wealth and don't need to think. Those who achieve great things are those who renounce, just like Buddha who left his kingdom to attain enlightenment. Nehru came from a wealthy family. He donated everything and attained poverty to become Nehru. When you are free from wealth, you will be able to become knowledgeable. This is my religion, and my politics. This is my own thinking. However, there is nothing separate of mine in this either. I learned from my grandfather, who was illiterate. I also learned from my mother and my gurus, who were knowledgeable in many languages. I learn a lot from observing things. I can never think that I am knowledgeable. One should always be in the process of continuous learning. One should continuously refine one's knowledge. Change is necessary according to time. One needs to add new knowledge, just as you bathed today, you will have to bathe tomorrow too. Bathing thoroughly and for a long time one day will not suffice. Just as food has to be eaten every few hours, so is knowledge.